3/4/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack:









   

                3/11/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack:

 







 



                4/29/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack:

 









  • Numerous attempts by Judge to interfere with Carder’s investigation, through Thompson’s office.





 PREJUDICIAL/BIASED INVESTIGATION - FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE

  • Mac Carder’s memo to file dated 3/31/97, states:


 



 

  •   3/11/97 handwritten note of Lance Womack:


 



 



  • Thompson discredited any claims I, or anyone else, made regarding Jack Walls and his association with me and/or the murder of my family.




 






 



  • I informed Thompson of the sexual abuse by Jack Walls and was told to “keep that under [my] hat” that “it’s not important right now.”
  • My case was rushed through the system.
  • In a letter to the Prison Board regarding Mac’s assistance with my clemency, he states:



 

  • See also “EXPEDITION OF MENTAL EVALUATION” below.
  • After the trial of Jack Walls (see below - NAMED VICTIM IN STATE OF ARKANSAS V. CHARLES A. WALLS, III), Special Prosecutor, Betty Dickey, who replaced Larry Cook, sent a letter to “Whom It May Concern” on my behalf stating:


 


 





  • First Responder to crime scene discusses active case.



  • Jack Walls attended this retreat and was heard asking if I had implicated anyone else in the murders.  He also asked if this deputy thought I would ever be released from prison, as well as if I had many visitors in the county lockup.
  • Jack Walls offered and was allowed to “secure the scene”.
  • Jack Walls was a voluntary fireman allowing inside access to information regarding crime/scene.
  • Ensures any evidence of his presence/participation is excused/explained or destroyed.
  • Allows for potential tampering of case/investigation.
  • Evidence and case file missing. (See Memo to Cpt Williams from Inv. Hollingsworth re Stocks Crime Scene Video)
  • Mac Carder sends letter dated May 3, 2000, to the Post Prison Transfer Board Members in regard to my upcoming Clemency Hearing dated May 10, 2000.



 



WITNESSES WITHHELD EVIDENCE

  • Annie May Harris – My maternal grandmother was told by my mother that she found Jack and me in bed together sleeping at my house (to which I was unaware).  According to Mrs. Harris, she never spoke of this fact due to a gag order issued by Judge Hanshaw, mistakenly believed to apply to her and what she knew.  This was conveyed to Special Prosecutor Betty Dickey and Victim Advocate Joye Cook.
  • Reverend Robert Marble – Pastor at Concord Methodist Church, congregation my family attended.




 




MENTAL AGE OF MATURITY

  • On the date of the murders, I had been age 20 for only two months.  With 10 years of sexual abuse being a factor, my mental age of maturity was far below 20.
  • Lifetime of mental and emotional abuse from father and grandfather.
  • On medication for most of my youth for ADD.
  • Well documented in attorney memos the view my family had of me; little boy, immature, etc.
  • In 2012, the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that mandatory life sentences for juveniles violated the Constitution.
  • Researchers at Harvard Medical School, the National Institute of Mental Health, UCLA, and others, are collaborating to “map” the development of the brain from childhood to adulthood and examine its implications.
  • An article in the American Bar Association, Juvenile Justice Center, dated January 2004, “Cruel and Unusual Punishments:  The Juvenile Death Penalty – Adolescence, Brain Development and Legal Culpability” states:


 
     

 

  • If life sentences, for juveniles, violate the Constitution; let’s consider the violation of three life sentences without the possibility of parole.


PREJUDICIAL/BIASED JUDGE

  • Mac Carder filed a Motion to Control Prejudicial Publicity on January 24, 1997, only one day after being appointed co-counsel in my defense, and three days after Thompson’s appointment.
  • Order Control of Publicity is signed by Judge Lance Hanshaw on March 20, 1997 – two months after motion is filed, allowing a small town to become inundated with rumor and speculation to be mixed with hearsay and the potential breach of confidential details and facts.
  • According to Mac’s Motion, “massive, highly prejudicial publicity” was being reported by television news agencies from Little Rock, through the press, including local Lonoke press and the state-wide Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, yet two months of additional publicity would be allowed before an Order was signed.  This allowed the media to shape public opinion.
  • Per 1/31/97 Mac Carder memo to file:


 

 



  • During Jack’s trial (see below NAMED VICTIM IN STATE OF ARKANSAS V. CHARLES A. WALLS, III), his sentence was overturn at the Supreme Court level and remanded to the Circuit Court for resentencing due to a statement made by Judge Lance Hanshaw on February 4, 1998 (same Judge who oversaw my case): 


 



 
PROSECUTOR LARRY COOK

  • Prosecuted my case, styled:   State of Arkansas v. Heath Stocks, Lonoke County Circuit Court Case No. CR 97-9;
  • He was aware, or should have been aware, of Jack Walls’ involvement (see heading VICTIM IN STATE OF AR V. CHARLES A. WALLS, III, below)
  • Cook was formerly of the Stuart Law Firm, where Jack Walls, Sr. was once an attorney before Walls, Sr. became Judge. Cook is also a Walls’ family friend. 
  • August 1, 1997 – Lonoke Police were called and claims of abuse were reported.  Same day, prosecutor’s office (Larry Cook) meets with families of victims and Chief Peckat.
  • August 19, 1997 – Peckat sends letter to Cook requesting certain documents from the Boy Scouts of America:


 

  • October 3, 1997 – Per Peckat letter to Judge Hanshaw:


 
 

 

  • October 5, 1997 - Cook received lengthy case file from Chief Charles Peckat's office.  Peckat had items that he needed to be submitted to the crime laboratory for serology and print testing analysis.  Cook questioned him as to whether it was wise to send this evidence to the State Crime Laboratory.
  • October 6, 1997 – Jack Walls is arrested.  Cook discussed the Walls matter with two families and states Peckat is no investigator and has prepared a poor case file.  Both families expressed no confidence in Cook or the Prosecutors office.  “He's playing both sides.”
  • October 17, 1997 – Larry Cook requests to be recused from the case (12 days after receipt of lengthy case file from Peckat) citing ethical issues as he has been before Walls, Sr. in court.
  •  Receives $300 campaign contribution from Hubert Alexander (Walls defense attorney) when Cook was running for prosecuting attorney.
  • Cook knew Walls long before the sexual abuse claims were ever brought to light; it did not take him two months to realize that he had practiced before Judge Walls and, therefore, a conflict may be assumed.  He was no doubt involved long enough to receive pertinent files, insider knowledge, and taint the investigation.

 
INTERVIEWS (tampering with evidence)

  • Numerous interviews with numerous investigators (see table below);
  • My interview with Steve Finch (Investigator with Lonoke County Sheriff’s office and good friend of my father) on Jan. 20, 1997 was recorded while Finch hand-wrote my “confession.”
  • Finch had me initial each page of confession after informing me that he had to go back and listen to the tape in order to complete portions of the interview and to “trust him” that what was written was what was said on tape.
  • Upon Finch going back to listen to the tape for clarification, the interview was altered. Many facts regarding the crime scene were added which were taken from the investigators’ reports.


 
EXPEDITION OF MENTAL EVALUATION

  • 1/22/97 30 Day In-Patient Evaluation Order for Psychiatric Examination signed by Judge Hanshaw; approved by Barbara Elmore, Deputy Pros Atty. and Edgar Thompson, Atty for Def.
  • Mac Carder’s (co-defense attorney) memo to file dated 2/3/97 states:


 


  • Memo to File 2/12/97




 




BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

  • Due to Hogan sexual solicitation accusations (see below), Jack Walls’s affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America is revoked on January 5, 1993.
  • Jack attends Philmont (Boy Scout Expedition in Philmont, NM) June 18-22, 1993, as my father, Joe Stocks, in order to attend undetected. He was considered “unstoppable” by not only us boys, but by the parents, obviously mine as well.


 WALLS’ POLITICAL POWER THWARTS JUDGMENT IN HOGAN 1993 SEXUAL SOLICITATION CASE

  • Doug Hogan matter regarding claims of sexual solicitation by Jack Walls at Boy Scout camp-out on Walls’ farm.
  • Hogans filed suit against Jack Walls, the Boy Scouts of America and their staff on August 13, 1993. Hogan, et al. v. Jack Walls, III, et al., Pulaski County, Arkansas Case No. 93-05318
  • When Cledis Hogan filed a report with DHS, no actions were taken by any officials in any capacity to investigate the alleged abuse.  The Hogans were finally able to file a case against Jack by going to a judge outside the city of Lonoke.
  • Municipal Court Judge Gary Rogers, brought in from Hazen, AR, presided.
  • Angela Alexander, Deputy Pros. attorney from Larry Cook's office prosecuted the case.  How is this possible?  "No comment" by all asked.   
  •  Bill Fletcher, former State Rep. appeared on Walls' behalf along with Charlie & Karen Knox. In addition, numerous boys who had been and were currently being molested by Jack also appeared on his behalf.
  • Court session lasted only 3 hours.
  • Judge founded that there was “probable cause” that Jack Walls committed Assault in the third degree and Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor and issued 2 warrants for his arrest.
  • April 8, 1994 - Trial held in Carlisle Municipal Court where the judge found Jack Walls not guilty of the charges that were filed in City of Carlisle v. Jack Walls.
  • Judge states on the record that based on the testimony “I personally believe that there may have been other charges that may have been filed, but weren’t.”
  • Cledis Hogan (father of Doug Hogan) alleges that this was intentional and has a copy of the original affidavit, which seems to show that other charges were initiated by police but were changed by the prosecutor or city attorney.
  • April 29, 1994 – due to a deposition taken of Jack Walls by attorney Chip Welch concerning the incident and raised sufficient questions about Walls’ version of events that the case was settled for an undisclosed but reportedly substantial amount.
  • Internal investigation of DHS revealed multiple violations of the law.  Just to name a few:
  • According to the Internal Affairs Review of the DCFS 1993 Investigation of Allegations Against Jack Walls III Memo dated Dec. 7, 1998, Chief Counsel Breck Hopkins states:



 


  • Former State Rep. Bill I. Fletcher, among several others, appeared in the Carlisle courtroom as a character witness for Walls.
  • Joe Quinn, a department spokesperson said when he learned that such a file had been given to someone accused of soliciting sex from a minor:


 

  •  A person listed only as "Walls" on the form requested and received a copy of the Human Services Department's investigation file just prior to the Hogan 1993 case.
  •  These DHS documents Jack was able to obtain may have implicated him as a child abuser.  No one has ever been able to answer how Jack was able to obtain these documents.  Clearly Jack has connections that allow him to live above the law. "I have no idea how this happened," Quinn said when he learned that such a file had been given to someone accused of soliciting sex from a minor.

 NAMED VICTIM IN STATE OF ARKANSAS V. CHARLES A. WALLS, III, Lonoke County Circuit Court Case Nos. CR-97-236 and CR-97-276

  • Jan. 6, 1998 Walls pleads guilty to five counts of rape and no contest to the charge of raping me.
  • The night before Jack was to enter his plea; both he and I took lie detector tests.  Jack failed, I passed.
  • Per letter to Judge in this case, dated October 17, 1997, Chief Charles Peckat states:

 



  • Walls’ sentence was overturn at the Supreme Court level and remanded to the Circuit Court for resentencing due to statement made by Judge Lance Hanshaw in dissertation dated February 4, 1998 (same Judge who oversaw my case): 


 


 
UNDISPUTED CONNECTION WITH JACK WALLS

Since Jack’s conviction, no one has investigated to determine Jack’s level of involvement in the shooting of my family  For example:

  • Although I told several people, no one investigated the validity of my claim that he ordered me to kill my parents.  Especially in light of the fact that he was charged with 2 counts to solicit murder (against Cledis & Doug Hogan) by Special Prosecutor Betty Dickey at the same time the rape charges were filed.  Jack successfully plea bargained to dismiss these charges.
  • Common knowledge of Jack’s presence/involvement in the crime scene just hours after the murders occurred.
  • Wade Knox’s admission of being present (with Jack) and participating in the murders.
  • Jack’s constant attendance of all things relating to my case, carefully listening, and asking questions if I had implicated anyone else being present when my family was shot.
  • To date, Jack continues to interfere with any investigation into my case. A letter, in an envelope labeled "Subj. Personal and Confidential," addressed to Chuck Graham, Prosecuting Attorney, Jack offers his assistance with my current appeal.

In the state of Arkansas, clergy are child abuse mandatory reporters. He did not report.

Mom contacted Rev. Marble upon witnessing Jack and me together in bed.

Rev. Marble visited me in the Arkansas State Hospital asking why I “did what I did.” I explained to him that “Jack made me do it.”  Rev. Marble never spoke of this. 

During the trial of Jack Walls in which I was named a victim, Reverend Marble was considered a hostile witness who had to be subpoenaed to appear.

                                                                                                    Read more about Reverend Marble, the Church meeting, and mandatory reporters.

“PA told family that coffee shop talk was that community wanted DP – Dorothy told me this.”

“I wanted to do what I could to see that his case have more of a chance at a just result than it did when it was rushed through the Lonoke County Circuit Court in 1997.”

“Received return call from Sara. (2-3-97)  She informed me that she was going to call Billy Burris of the state hosp. and request that Heath’s eval. Be expedited.  When I asked her why she would want to do that she replied that she wasn’t sure why but the judge wanted her to.”

 “The belief of Cledis Hogan that inappropriate influence affected the outcome of the 1993 investigation is sincerely held and is certainly not irrational or unreasonable.  There were a number of events related to this incident and its subsequent investigation and prosecution that circumstantially suggest inappropriate influence.”

“Thompson also said that the Stocks kid was faking and that he and the judge thought the kid was a cold-blooded murderer.  He proceeded to describe to me a statement about what the kid supposedly told him when I changed the subject because we were on a soft cell line.”

“This office has numerous instances documented where Edgar Thompson has been rude to the staff.  His resentment of this office in being lead counsel on two capital murder cases in his county is obvious.  The judge as well has had words against us.”

“Thompson said he and the judge had had enough of the Arkansas public defender commission and that they were through with us.”

“Thompson also said that the Stocks kid was faking and that he and the judge thought the kid was a cold-blooded murderer.  He proceeded to describe to me a statement about what the kid supposedly told him when I changed the subject because we were on a soft cell line.”

Memo continues by documenting a phone call on Jan. 31, 1997 wherein Mac and Thompson argue over who called who, who’s lying, who’s telling the truth, etc.

“On 10/3/97, Larry Cook came to my office and stated that he was only going to pursue three of the charges against Mr. Walls.  He did not give any explanation on why he did not seek warrants for two counts of solicitation of Capitol Murder.  He stated that he was not going to seek rape charges on behalf of one rape victim (me) because he had a gut feeling that he should not because this victim would steal the spotlight.”

 

FALSE CONFESSION TO MURDER OF FAMILY

  • Under duress, I confessed to the murders of my father, Joe Stocks, mother, Barbara Stocks, and sister, Heather Stocks.
  • The confession was hand-written by Officer Steve Finch, my father’s good friend.
  • Charles “Jack” Walls, III and Wade Knox were present at the scene to ensure murders were carried through;
  • Wade told multiple people after I was sentenced, that he was present that night, including Special Prosecutor Betty Dickey.
  •  I only shot my father, Joe.


 10 YEARS SEXUALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY ABUSED BY SCOUTMASTER

  • Began when I was 9. I became one of approx. 150 boys, authorities later estimated, sexually abused over three decades by my Scoutmaster Jack Walls.
  • Supplied alcohol and pornographic material.
  • Access to numerous types of firearms.
  • Jack Walls, III convinced me and other boys that group/boy-on-boy sex, etc., was natural.
  • Regularly threatened to harm me and/or my family.


 CHARLES “JACK” WALLS, III

  • My abuser planned, ordered, and was present at the scene of the murder of my family.
  • Jack was the first person allowed to visit me in the county jail, after my arrest.  He continually insisted that his political influence would protect me from prosecution if I kept quiet. Jack vowed to assist me; I only needed to keep quiet of the facts and circumstances leading up to and including the murder of my family.
  • Years earlier, Jack had been charged and tried, but found innocent of sexual misconduct, based on the false testimony of his own victims. My father also took the stand in Jack’s defense.
  • Voted Chamber of Commerce Man of the Year (1992).
  • Jack is the son of former Judge Charles A. Walls Jr., one time appointed, special judge on the Arkansas Supreme Court, city attorney for Lonoke, AR, and appointed in 1995 to serve as circuit/chancery judge for the newly formed 17th Judicial District-West in Lonoke County, Arkansas.

  • Jack was a close friend of the prosecutor in my case, Larry Cook.
  • Jack was a close friend of the Lonoke County Sheriff, Charles Martin, who was in office at the time of the murders.
  • One of my public defenders, Edgar Thompson, was a personal friend to Judge Walls and practiced regularly in his court.  He was also a close friend to Jack as they were known to sit together regularly in church. 
  • Was able to secure copies of confidential, legally-protected DHS documents during Hogan matter (see below) that may have implicated him as a child abuser.

  • Placed in the military (Vietnam) in order to avoid sexual harassment claim while in college.
  • Immediately became involved with Boy Scouts upon return from Vietnam.

  • Sexual harassment accusations (1987 Camp Kennesaw).


 INEFFECTIVE COUNSEL

  • I was appointed Defense Attorney Edgar Thompson and Co-Defense counsel Mac Carder, Jr. (an “out-of-towner” from Little Rock), due to Thompson  not being death penalty certified.
  • 4/29/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack (asst. to Carder):

                   





 



  •  5/20/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack (asst to Carder):




                   


 




  • As part of Thompson’s investigation, he asked, “you ever sleep with your sister or farm animals?” – Such a line of questioning was inappropriate but gives insight regarding his knowledge of Jack and who Jack really was.  Only a person who knew Jack Walls could conjure such a line of questioning. 
  • In a letter dated May 3, 2000, to the Prison Board regarding Mac’s assistance with my clemency, he states:








  • The tumultuous relationship between my attorneys; numerous office memos documenting the inability to work together.  A few examples:

                Feb. 5, 1997 Memo to Lance/Betty from Mac:


 









 














  • I was told different strategies of my case and instructed contradicting actions (as was my family);




 




 


2/20/97 handwritten notes of Lance Womack:

“Edgar told Defendant (according to Defendant) somewhere in the 40 year range due to Defendant’s age, and how close he was to family, etc. (according to Defendant, Edgar has been saying that for “awhile”) he told Defendant he probably had 3 possibilities (1) LWOP (2) L w/parole (3) 40 years w/parole.”

This page contains the numerous talking points, mitigating factors, and extenuating circumstances comprising the case for justice for Heath Stocks.  Although extensive, it's certainly not exhaustive.  Compelling and intriguing - it deserves a second look - a day in court.   

“In 1997 and 1998, as the Special Prosecutor of the Jack Walls Rape cases in Lonoke County, I learned information relevant to the 1997 murder charges to which Heath Stocks pleaded guilty.  In the course of our investigation I learned that the Public Defender knew or should have known about Jack Walls’ involvement in the murders of Joe, Bonnie and Heather Stocks.  This information came from interviews with Heath Stocks’ minister, maternal grandmother, as well as the defendant himself. . . . I was, and remain, strongly convinced that Heath Stocks was not afforded a fair trial, nor adequate representation. . . Therefore, I believe it is appropriate that this matter be reviewed to determine whether it should be submitted to the Governor for clemency . . . I, as an officer of the Court, uncovered critical evidence that should have been brought out in the 1997 murder case, but wasn’t”

“There is also other information as well that I am currently trying to obtain from various sources.  Amazingly, it is learned recently, that the Court’s file on Heath had mysteriously disappeared from the Lonoke County Circuit Clerk’s Office.  The clerk was in the process of reconstructing this file from the prosecutor’s file and had requested that I provide her with what file I had on Heath from 1997 . . . I did not provide the clerk with any of my files; simply because I have begun to see just how much has been swept under the rug in this case . . .”

“Mac & LW went to Lonoke, viewed crime scene photos, conveyed offer to Defendant, advised Edgar of offer (Edgar did not know who Mac was and immediately began dishing Mac Carder w/APDC!!) drove to crime scene on Johnson Rd.”

“Edgar told Defendant that he thinks he can get Defendant a term of years – 40.”

“I do not have to believe Heath Stocks’ testimony that you told him to kill his family, to know that he was your finest creation and, perhaps, most vulnerable victim, and to know that he became what you taught him to be . . . . . I only know that, in the very least, you are indirectly responsible for the deaths of Joe, Barbara and Heather Stocks.”

Deputy Steve Finch, attended as part of a group, a “retreat,” which was recorded on cassette.  He took with him my active case file for discussion.  See Email of Linda Buffalo.

 "It is against state law for anyone to obtain a copy of a Human Services Department investigation, 'This is the last bastion of where children are protected.  Those reports are confidential, and no one by Arkansas law can get them,' he said." 

“Larry Cook came to my office and stated that he was only going to pursue three of the charges against Mr. Walls.  He did not give any explanation on why he did not seek warrants for two counts of solicitation of Capitol Murder.  He stated that he was not going to seek rape charges on behalf of one rape victim because he had a gut feeling that he should not because this victim would steal the spotlight.” (referencing myself)

“I do not have to believe Heath Stocks’ testimony that you told him to kill his family, to know that he was your finest creation and, perhaps, most vulnerable victim, and to know that he became what you taught him to be . . . . . I only know that, in the very least, you are indirectly responsible for the deaths of Joe, Barbara and Heather Stocks.”

Received return call from Sara. (2-3-97) She informed me that she was going to call Billy Burris of the state hosp. and request that Heath’s eval. be expedited.  When I asked her why she would want to do that she replied that she wasn’t sure why, but the judge wanted her to.  I told her that we did not want to get in a hurry to try the case as there is much mitigation to discover if the prosecutor is going for DP.

“Edgar has not been to see him since first time.”

 “We did not receive all information requested and Larry Cook refuses to furnish me a copy of the subpoena or letter.  He said he made a second request for documents not furnished, but he says that I cannot have any requesting documentation.”

Re:  MAC and LW trip to ASH

Approx. 4:30 p.m. on 2/11/97 MAC and I went to the forensic unit to meet with Dr. Kittrell.  MAC explained that he was not attempting to circumvent the Judge’s Order but that Heath was not discussing the events specific to the incident due to the fact that we had only a small portion of the file.  MAC further stated that he probably would advise Heath to cooperate fully in order to get a complete evaluation and normally we had the complete file for months. Dr. Kittrell stated that he was “amazed” that Heath got in that quick.  Dr. K further commented that he was under a court order and could not promise anything but that they would not push the evaluation this week.

 “The evidence now is strong that the brain does not cease to mature until the early 20s in those relevant parts that govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, foresight of consequences, and other characteristics that make people morally culpable…Indeed, age 21 or 22 would be closer to the ‘biological’ age of maturity.”

"I wanted to do what I could to see that his case have more of a chance at a just result than it did when it was rushed through the Lonoke County Circuit Court in 1997.”

“I feel that there was much more in the way of representation that I could have provided him, had I known about the true facts surrounding his case in 1997.”

 “It is new evidence in that it was not known by me, his original counsel, at the time he pled guilty to three counts of capital murder.  Had I known of this information, we would not have entered that plea.”

“uh, and I told him that, and Jack – I didn’t know who Jack was, but after I said that, I said some guy named Jack or something like that was trying to make Heath an assassin.  He (Edgar Thompson) said Jack Walls; I said, “Yeah, that’s him.”  No, he is sitting beside you, he wouldn’t do nothing like that.”

“Mac told Defendant to go ahead and cooperate and talk then Edgar came to see him and told him not to talk about case.”

“Sheriff told Defendant that PA calls Sheriff and asked Sheriff what he thought – Sheriff will back up whatever PA does.”

“Heath wanted to know why Mac changed the plea – I told him to make a good record – that’s how the plea should have been entered in the first place.”

*See Hanshaw Dissertation, February 4, 1998 

  • Town Meeting at Church held to brainstorm/discuss why I would kill my family. This meeting was video-taped.  To my knowledge, the tape has never surfaced. (See "Omission or Oversight?" blog for more.)
  • Reverend Marble, Edgar Thompson and Jack Walls attended this meeting along with numerous family and friends.
  • Although Jack was present and even discussed among the attendees, my own attorney deliberately omitted this information from the letter containing the Church Notes sent to my other attorney, Mac Carder. (See letter to Mac Carder 2/7/97)
  • Keith Anthony, college friend, attends church meeting and “outs” Jack about him training me to be an assassin.  Keith states I told him that Jack ("some guy named Jake") was training me to be an assassin.
  • In a phone interview on April 26, 2000 between Keith, Mac Carder and Lance Womack (Carder’s assistant), regarding the church meeting, Keith states: :